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Addendum to armor
#1
Bug 
After Blazing and someone else brought something to my attention regarding armor, I feel like this would be worth discussing to see what others think about this.

A brief explanation of how armor worked so far:
Much like in HL2, or Quake, etc. Armor soaked up some of the damage, and let the rest of the damage be applied to your health. Now, in these games, the ratio is usually always the same no matter what, so there's no real "penetration" as a stat, more-so just standard damage behavior.

Something that was brought up was how having penetration as a valuable stat is essentially not all that useful, because say you have some sort of SMG or shotgun, you chip away at the whole armor before getting to the health and cutting that too. Well, if you had say 50% penetration, what would happen? The same damage would be split evenly between armor and HP, resulting in more or less the same result but just slower and both at once instead of faster but one after the other. Essentially, penetration on smgs and the like is worthless and whether you have 5% or 50% it makes little to no difference, except if they somehow have wayyy more armor than HP.

At first, my initial answer to that was: Well, fatties are just gonna have way more armor but not much more max HP than the rest, so that it's still more valuable to have penetration to kill their HP before wasting damage on armor, but then this meant armor would end up being kind of useless if the gold standard is just to do enough penetration to kill before running out of armor. In other words, 100 HP with 200 armor would be no different than 100 HP with 700 armor, if all they care about is penetration, which is kind of dumb.

For that reason, something that was brought up is how instead of splitting the damage, armor should instead always soak up all of the damage, and then ALSO let through extra damage depending on penetration. For example, a 100 damage gun with 10% penetration would do 100 to armor, and then 10 to health, independently. A gun with 100 damage and 50% penetration would do 100 to armor then 50 to health, and so on.

By doing it like-so, penetration as a stat would immediately become extremely valuable, and worth sacrificing damage and other stats over for. Then, to balance it out, we could keep the fatties with their current amount of high HP, but also a good amount of armor. SMGs could still do a bunch of DPS, but with shit penetration, they wouldn't get the double-dipping factor that high-penetration guns would have, like snipers.

Some rebalance would be required (yet again) but I think this would make penetration a much more worthwhile deal than it is with the current system.


What do you guys think?
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#2
Seems like it would work don't see a problem with it.
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#3
Tip: How Penetration works right now for any newbies with out the update;
The damage applied to the person is rounded twice, once for armor and health.
to determine the amount of damage you deal just multiply the penetration percentage (EX: 2% = 0.02) and the damage of the gun. then you have how much health damage your gun will do per shot / 1 click. Now with any multi shot weapons like double, triple, shotguns, flak cannon, etc.. the damage you penetrate is based off of total damage, no off of each shot. EX: A gun with double does 25x2 with 50% penetration, so each shot should do 12.5 aka 13 damage to health.


-Armor is fine, i don't see a problem with it especially with fatties and any other class... maybe add a way to convert health to armor and armor to health? but not too much.
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#4
Damnit Nachoes you didn't even read my post
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#5
+support seems like a really solid idea. Goodluck with the balancing part if you decide to go for it.

(05-22-2017, 08:33 AM)AwesomeNachos Wrote: Tip: How Penetration works right now for any newbies;
The damage applied to the person is rounded twice, once for armor and health.
to determine the amount of damage you deal just multiply the penetration percentage (EX: 2% = 0.02) and the damage of the gun. then you have how much health damage your gun will do per shot / 1 click. Now with any multi shot weapons like double, triple, shotguns, flak cannon, etc.. the damage you penetrate is based off of total damage, no off of each shot. EX: A gun with double does 25x2 with 50% penetration, so each shot should do 12.5 aka 13 damage to health.


-Armor is fine, i don't see a problem with it especially with fatties and any other class... maybe add a way to convert health to armor and armor to health? but not too much.

this nigga lives in his own world i swear
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#6
Another point that was brought up was ER.

Essentially, since elemental damage now has little to no difference apart from regular damage aside from having a bit more penetration but less direct damage, I figured we could just do away with ER completely, considering the reason it was even there in the first place was to offer an alternative to DR, which elemental damage ignored.

Without the whole "is it elemental? ignore armor, otherwise don't" factor, there's no reason to have ER, as it would just unfairly nerf elemental weapons for no reason.

Hazmat would probably remain a perk of its own, but everything else like oranges, ER shrines, and base ER on classes would probably just get removed altogether.

You'd either just have 50% elemental rez (possibly more?), or none at all, and it would take up your perk slot. The little yellow indicator on the hud would be removed, and some of the other stuff scooted over to make room.
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#7
Okay I've made the changes and now all that's left is seeing how things work out.

Armored Unit and Big Cheese have more HP but not much armor, making them better at tanking sniper shots and the like, so they can walk in the street without getting shit on too much.

Hellknight and Sweeper on the other hand have tons of armor, making them really good against SMGs and shotguns, but somewhat weak to snipers, so they're better off defending or doing cqc stuff.

Most classes have been made seemingly a little tankier, but only because now penetration makes weapons double-dip in damage, so snipers and such will be stronger. (Shotguns might need to be buffed yet again, we'll see) Expect some of the balance to be a little wonky until it all gets figured out
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